Rockstar's next effort - a game too far? Options

[DanMaggot]

Saw an article in Micro Mart (which for all it's made out of recycled waste has some keen articles in it).

Rockstar, makers of the GTA series seem to be making (or are reported to be doing so and aren't denying it) a game about Bullying.

Now it turns out, and I hadn't been aware but if you think about it it's unsurprising, but bullying is not limited to the workplace and schools but is now an online experience. As it's one of the lowest forms of behaviour that people can carry out, I guess it's no surprise that they do it in this way, able to inflict a lot of damage by creating entertainments out of other people's pain.

So here come a game publisher with a new game based on it........

http://www.rockstargames.com/bully/

I have to admit this passes well below my acceptance level on what's an appropriate subject. Which I suppose is weird because I play war games, I don't mind killing people in game environments so why should name calling bother me. I think the answer is that it's a few steps off torture. And name calling often becomes a more physical sport. Shooting your mates online is accepted in the way it's played; a game; for fun.

Bullying online is intended to harm at the expense of an individual.

If this is acceptable I could think of a few more titles they could explore. How about rape, torture, child abuse........

[Slim Jim]

This could definatly lead to more serious things happening. No doubt school kids will play this, see the bullying going on, and start bullying people themselves, possibly using methods they learn of this game. Those bullies could then end up doing greater crimes as they get older - bit dramatic, but it is possible.(also it will not help us squah rasicm and prejudice out of our society, if any rasicm goes on in the game, then no way should it get published)

I have never had any experience with serious bullying, either being the bully or the victim, and although lots of bullying will probably be kept quiet, there does not seem to be any that goes on in our school. (nothing serious anyway) As such I don't have any major stance on it, obviously it is wrong and should not happen but it hasn't affected my life in any way.

[Naomi Armitage]

I was bullied for perhaps about a year and a half in high school. It marked the worst time of my life in which I wanted to kill people, including myself. Columbine would have been a fulfilment of my dreams during the hell that I lived through.

Bullying should by no means be a fun experience. It is a viscious cycle that only begets more violence. There are no winners, only victims; both the dealers and recipients of bullying are scarred for life.

My nephew was bullied when he was younger as well, and also has been changed forever for the worse by that experience.

Rockstar is well known as an envelope pusher. The reasons why controversial games such as GTA work is because most people wouldn't dream of doing those things in real life. Bullying, however, its too close to home and is an ever occuring nightmare for some people.

Clearly, this "Do unto others before others do unto you" is a serious shift in philosophy of gaming and one I cannot condone in my right mind.

[Cataclysm=J]

I'm bullied on a regluar basis by little shits who think its funny to take teh piscine out of my hair colour, they say just ignore it but you can't. The only thing that makes them stop is when you actually beat them to the floor, nothing else works and I've tired the lot. Even the headmaster threatening expulsion doesn't work, least I don't get the blame when they do end up in the medical room becuase they thought it would be funny.

Sorry for the language etc but its a subject thats kinda followed me round through-out my life.

[DanMaggot]

It's no great consolation but I have to tell you young 'uns it happens in the work place lots too. Sometimes it hides under the guise of kidding around, but there's a point when gentle teasing or joking becomes victimising and from then on it's bullying. Seems to happen a lot between the sexes which I guess is down to peer pressure/fear and other factors.

It seems to be somthing that happens in our society and it's one of the many things we could really do without. I am not that great at standing up for my own rights (I've a tendency to say sod it and go do something else, not liking confrontation), but that's no great solution. And if you've got an internal honour system working, you'll find at some stage you'll end up standing up for others if not yourself.

I've got no good advice except this. No one has more rights than you. I'm not sure if that's particularly insightful. Probably not. But I find it a useful measure to place against any situation.

[Slim Jim]

As I said, I have never been bullied, so I can't comprehend both how hard it is to confront the problem, or how difficult it is too ignore it. As Cat will probably tell you, I'm a fairly laid back person, who generally can't be made to react violently to most situations (although i'm more than willing to jump in to trouble, if my freinds are involved). In my view, confrontation, at least when facing serious bullying, won't work, unless there is a higher authority than youself involved (Headteachers, older brothers , Police in extreme cases). As I think most bullies, bully to make themselves feel better, odd as that is, not giving them a reaction may be the best way to handle it. But I haven't a clue as I am fortunate enough to have a bully free life, but this game should not be published.

As Naomi says, Rockstar are envelope pushers, but this, I think, is one push too far. (GTA was cutting it close aswell)

[Cataclysm=J]

I tend to just ignore it until one person persists, after all higher authority have had a go and made no difference then they get the crap beaten out of them, and it really is just a last resort but you need some way to make them stop.

[Hoby]

Obviously you don't like it because it's a form of violence that is close to YOUR reality. You have probably been on the unfortunate side of bullying situations, yet you have not been on the unfortunate side of military combat situations. It's important to understand what makes someone a hypocrite.

Rockstar isn't going too far with this game. The game itself appears to be a statement, one which will likely be lost on people such as yourself if the rudimentary introspection above is not engaged.

[DanMaggot]

Hoby, I don't mean to be rude, I just have no idea what you're trying to say.
.........

Actually the more I read, and wrote, and read your reply the more I did understand it.

So let me have a go and reply.

Ok, yes - I've never been in combat. Perhaps to someone who has experienced war, or a survivor from the 2nd world war, the idea of "playing" a game based around that conflict is abhorrent. I could understand that. Much as I could understand treating a war as a subject for film entertainment.

It has to be said that that the war game I play (Call of Duty by preference) is as much like war as ...... chess is. Or Battleships. It's a game with no pain, no particular realism (I die, I'm reborn and my death/kill rate is a score.......) and it's played in much the same way as children running around with toy guns. Indeed I play with a clan and the key to the pleasure is the interaction on teamspeak with mates. I get no thrill without that. If I wasn't in my clan I think I'd quit the game tomorrow. To my mind I consider the game to be almost nothing to do with war at all.
Call of Duty (1 not 2) when played properly and honestly is based around skill, accuracy, communication and luck but if you're saying that this might be a game too far in some people's eyes I could understand that. My play in this game is about playing with a bunch of mates - which frankly in my book is a valuable part of social interaction.

War (which is honestly a side issue in this topic)is a crappy thing and no mistake. This said, some wars are fought with moral ideals at the start (though usually overtaken by the engine's momentum), and soldiers fight for ideals, for the chance to go home, and to protect their mates. There are some positive things in these conflicts be they only moments of compassion,(though I grant I know nothing about war - this is my assumption).

Bullying is a form of sadism. It's getting your entertainment from deliberately hurting (mentally or physically) another person who is weaker, or in some way defensive. It's a little step up from torture.
There is no feature of bullying that has any positive part.

It's important to understand what makes someone a hypocrite

In a thousand things I'm a hypocrite I'm sure. But this I don't think is one of them.
First off I was asking a question.
Secondly if this isn't a game too far what is?
What exactly can you not portray in a game for people's entertainment if sadistic abuse is ok?

The game itself appears to be a statement

.... I'm not convinced Rockstar is in the business of making statements. They're in the business of making money, which they'll be glad to do on the back of some controversy.
When the sex mod popped up in GTA (along with the game violence that had raised no eyebrows) they got a lot of publicity and I think they thought, great what can we do next for that same buzz, that same rise in sales.

I think this is them stepping up with something new to outrage, or in some cases entice.
The latter are a group I'm most worried about.

[Spook Tooth]

'Early Bully advertising from Rockstar says: "As a troublesome schoolboy you'll laugh and cringe as you stand up to bullies, get picked on by teachers, play pranks on malicious kids, win or lose the girl and ultimately learn how to navigate the obstacles of the fictional reform school Bullworth Academy.

As the Inquirer say, the game is pitched at being the anti-bully 'bully', someone who's been on the receiving end and has turned the bully boy tactics back around on the perpetrators.

The BBC's website has a report on Rockstar's latest controversial title, also with comments and links to support websites for people who've been affected by bullying. They say Rockstar Games will enter into a 'constructive' dialogue with such organisations once the game is finished (no mention if they're going to donate some of the game's profits).

Rockstar Vancouver gives further articles on Bully highlighting the ongoing controversy surrounding the game.

[DanMaggot]

play pranks on malicious kids

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

so it's ok to bully if the kids you're doing it to are bad.......

You're right Spook I'd not seen that.

As a troublesome schoolboy

Great, just what we need, let's make the disruptives in school the hero.

I'm sorry, I know I'm becoming the voice of my parents, but I still see this as the wrong place to go.

According the the peice you link to

Bully, which is to be released in Australia for the new school year, is believed to feature students from rival gangs fighting for supremacy of their school. Graphics show tough-looking boys brawling on school grounds, including a vicious kicking match.

He ...... beats classmates and even teachers.

One of the problems aside from the whole "it's just a game" approach is that kids live in a them vs us world in school. There are clear divides separating the kids from the teachers, and the kids into sub groups. So what you classify as bad guys is going to depend upon how you see yourself subgroup wise.

[Cataclysm=J]

Bully, which is to be released in Australia for the new school year, is believed to feature students from rival gangs fighting for supremacy of their school. Graphics show tough-looking boys brawling on school grounds, including a vicious kicking match.

So it's aimed directly at students, just makes it worse.

One of the problems aside from the whole "it's just a game" approach is that kids live in a them vs us world in school. There are clear divides separating the kids from the teachers, and the kids into sub groups. So what you classify as bad guys is going to depend upon how you see yourself subgroup wise.

Schools are the worst place for segregation, I spend a fair amount of my time with other adults (from people in the sixth forum up to people in their 50s) becuase I notice there's no 'nerd', 'cool', 'skater' etc. There's just people, who most the time get on. Yes, there are some really thick adults who have never grown up and still think its 'hard' to go round threating people, but they are they minority (unless you go to a football stadium, sorry to stereotype but football lovers + lager is generally a bad combination). For for the large part everyone has grown out of caring about if they're 'cool' enough and just live to enjoy thensleves alongside other people.

In schools the smart ones are picked on (even my friend Josh calls me nerd if i say anything intelligent, but then hes yet to grow up a lot) so you get a group of those people who stay together so they don't have to endure the stupid comments from others. Then you have the 'cool' people, they generally don't cause anybody harm accept a few will shout names at people to look good infront of friends sometimes. Next the worst group, the 'hard' people, they just want to fight with everything for whatever reasons they have, its the bullies that usually fall into this group. And thats basicly it, I know this doesn't mean everyone is like their stereotype but everyone stays in one group.

I can't go to see some of my friends at break time becuase half the people they're with think I'm far too uncool to be there and its not worth the abuse so now I spend my break in my form room talking to georgina. You're stuck with the stereotype you're labled with however many people may know there's more to you. Which is why I spend a lot of time with people who a re older.

[Slim Jim]

becuase I notice there's no 'nerd', 'cool', 'skater' etc

Slightly hypocritical so say that, then the thing about football fans.(also, money seems to become fairly important when you are older (as in 40s) as this has a habit of reflecting what social class you belong to.

Its mainly the teenage years where 'labels' are put with people, where people care about what they look like, and what other people think of them. I think this is a perfectly fine stage to go through, and although some people never quite get out of it, most people do, generally around the same time (of course, all of this is only assumptions, as I have not reached a stage where I don't care, at least not as much as adults seem to)

Schools are the worst place for segregation

But can you say that when you have only ever experienced it at school, and I suppose out of school with your freinds (who aren't likely to do anything nasty). As Dan said, in work, there are many opportunities for bullying and segregation. Social events may provide an opportunity for people who belive themselves to be of a higher standing than you to act, non-responsibly.

In schools the smart ones are picked on

I believe smart peoples thoughts sometimes fall on deaf ears. Not everyone would choose to think about things, or listen to peoples opinions on things they deem 'pointless', at least during say, lunchtime or out of school, when they don't want to be involved in smart thinking (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif). Maybe the 'clever' people, or people who express their intelligece freely hang around together because they think the same, they enjoy each others company.

Next the worst group, the 'hard' people, they just want to fight with everything for whatever reasons they have, its the bullies that usually fall into this group

I have got the impression, at least from TV, films, magazines etc, that Bullies tend to be loners. Pariahs, no real freinds, which is why they feel the need to bully to make themselves feel better about not being popular. At least, the 'hardcore' bullies who pick on 1 person inparticular, frequently.

[Besty]

Fook mate this looks cracker just a bita craic like (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Zo~]

I remember reading about a game similar to this years ago in a Playstation Power, called Scum, in which you terrorised a neighbourhood with a stanley knife. This seems like a similar deal, except this time it's actually getting published.

Except I don't think it'll stay on sale for long, not over here at least. The GTA games had two things going for them against the censors: they were situations which are really, really difficult to emulate for the average 14-year-old (and the average 18-year-old really should know better), and they were bloody good games, which got them the support of the gamer. Whereas I can't see anyone supporting this.